Barry Ollman Reviews and Interview presents an extended interview with Barry Ollman...

What'll It Be?
(Blue Colorado Music)

The 2014 CD release of What'll It Be?, the first ever solo album from singer-songwriter Barry Ollman is a pleasant surprise. Although he's been involved in the US music scene for decades, it took the CD release of What'll It Be? to finally put Ollman on the map. Where he's been all our lives is a bit of a mystery but the ten track CD makes up for lost time. Assisting Barry are notable musicians such as—Graham Nash, Garry Tallent (of Bruce Springsteen's band), David Amram, keyboardist James Raymond and renowned guitarist David Beegle. As a guitarist himself, Ollman is no slouch and he sets the scene perfectly with the CD opener "Imogen's Lament", recorded with Nash. Amazingly, Ollman looks and sings like David Crosby, so it's no coincidence that Crosby's long lost son James Raymond plays keyboards on the album. The album rocks and rolls and also has a definite folk-rock influence. Ollman's voice is strong and clear and is also reminiscent of late great singer Phil Ochs. Ochs would have loved What'll It Be?, which is filled with honest and open lyrics and musical subject matter and can't get it out of your head hooks. Every song has something to offer but clearly the lead off track "Imogen's Lament" and the rocking "Banker's Holiday" are standouts. Fans of Phil Ochs and CSN will get a jolt out of Barry Ollman's What'll It Be?

Barry Ollman, photo by Guy Zahler
Photo credit: Guy Zahler

mwe3: You recently released your first solo album What'll It Be? which came out on CD on Blue Colorado Music. What were some of the key events surrounding the album and why did it take so long to record and release it? When and where was the music on What'll It Be? written and recorded?

Barry Ollman: I have a photo of me playing guitar at 8 years old so I guess it really did take me a while to make this record! I never stopped playing music but when fatherhood happened to me in my late 20s, I sort of launched into provide mode and music became more of a hobby or sideline for me. I had a band for ten years or so during that time called The Thrills which was one part Big Chill party band and one part men's mental health group. Looking back, the most significant aspect of this part of my musical life is that I had stopped writing completely! I had been a fairly active writer and performer in the late 1960s into the mid '70s. I did do some recording back then but I'd say I really wasn't ready to make a go of it. I had other things I had to do.

I should add that I remained very connected to music throughout my working life. First of all, I never stopped playing and I have so many great friends in the music world that I could always turn to for inspiration that music never turned to gray for me. It's always been in Technicolor; I just never chose to try to make a living from it.

Incidentally, one project that I got involved with in the early '90s was called Transperformance, now known as AxeCent Tuning Systems, which involved the development of the self-tuning guitar. It's still going but I'm not really involved anymore. The technology is brilliant and I managed to make a lot of great friends through my work there. Dave Beegle, my co-producer on the record was our go-to demo guy. Then I met Henry Gross at a NAMM show in Nashville and we've become dear friends. Henry introduced me to Garry Tallent who's been more than generous, playing bass on four of my songs. Garry is such a great guy and he knows pretty much everything about the music I care most about. Henry also introduced me to one of my longtime favorite players and singers, Felix Cavaliere of The Rascals, and he's been an inspiration for me as well. I've met other awesome people through Henry... AJ Croce, Steve Forbert, even the great Joe Brown ... The Beatles used to open for Joe Brown! Henry is a brilliant and dedicated songwriter himself, as well as a fantastic guitarist. He's also kept me laughing hysterically for the past twenty years!

I should mention that I met a lot of other serious music people through Transperformance, like Pete Townshend, Jimmy Page, Pat Metheny, Buddy Miller and more. I get a lot of juice out of spending time with people who manage to stay close to their creativity.

Barry Ollman with Graham Nash. Photo by James Tuttle
Photo credit: James Tuttle

Fast forward to the record. It probably started brewing around the time of the Democratic National Convention in Denver in 2008. One of my dearest friends in life is Graham Nash. Aside from having one of my favorite voices in Rock & Roll, Graham has a well-deserved reputation for being one of the truly great guys in the music world. I can confirm that right here. He has a lot to say and I love that he sings from his heart. Anyway, I invited him to come to Denver for the week of the convention as I had access to some good seats for the various events. I knew we'd meet some interesting people and Denver was really buzzing at the time. So Graham and his son Will came out and we spent a lot of time just walking the streets and soaking up the energy, which was very intense, if you recall. Graham and David also played an Etown show that was part of the DNC programming. James Taylor, Irma Thomas, Tom Morello, Ani DiFranco and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. were also on the bill. Graham borrowed my Guild D40 for that show and there's some great footage of him playing it. Warms my heart! Anyway, we had a total blast that week, and by the time the election happened, I was fairly well exhausted. I think the prospect of John McCain and Sarah Palin running the executive branch was just too much for my little lefty brain to wrap its arms around!

The morning after, when it was clear that Colorado had turned blue, I sent Graham an email titled "Greetings from Blue Colorado" and I told him I felt like I could breathe for the first time in months. Then I picked up my 1966 Guild D40 and wrote Blue Colorado in about an hour. It was literally the first complete song I'd written in many years and it felt really good.

I made a little phone recording and sent it to Graham and he told me to keep going with it. I wasn't really sure what that meant but it was definitely encouraging! A few weeks later, I bumped into my old friend, Nick Forster, of Etown and Hot Rize fame, and in the course of our conversation I casually mentioned that I had written this song and I thought it might be interesting. He immediately suggested that we record it, which honestly hadn't even occurred to me. I had yet to make the leap into any form of home recording and just hadn't been thinking that way. The next thing I knew, I was in his studio working on Blue Colorado.

Nick is one of the best players you'll ever meet and he played two incredible solos on the song, one on a Les Paul and one on his Weissenborn Lap Steel. Sweet and tasty as can be! Then he asked Helen to come in and sing a harmony part and she just happens to be one of my all-time favorite harmony singers! This was starting to get exciting and I was pretty much hooked. Over the next few months, I started to jot down lyrics as they came to me and one by one I started developing some new song ideas.

Each song I came up with felt quite different from the last and I really liked that. I found that I was able to draw from so many different influences over my musical life and I somehow began to feel less afraid of the writing process. The writer's block that I'd lived with over the years began to look like some sort of strange object sitting up on a shelf. It would be made of fear and inhibition and other weird shit that I don't want in my life anyway! Why let that keep me from something that I've always loved?

I think the second song I finished was Painting the West and that's a whole other story. Some other time... In any event, I thought I might want to record it too and see what I could come up with.

Barry Ollman, photo by Guy Zahler
Photo credit: Guy Zahler

Nick had gotten me started but I knew he was too busy to do any more recording at that time. It occurred to me to call Dave Beegle, who was able to work me in to his schedule, and he has been a joy to work with throughout this project. We recorded most of the record at Dawghouse Studios at his place in Loveland, Colorado.

One thing I'd like to say is that I never really set out to make a record. I just wrote and recorded one song, and then another, and then another, until it began to resemble what I thought of as a record. I used to laugh in a slightly embarrassed sort of way, when I was first getting started, if someone said "Oh, you're making a record". I really wasn't so sure...

You asked where I wrote these songs. Virtually all of the songs were written in my den, where I do my best thinking. I almost always write in a spiral notebook with a mechanical pencil, in case anyone wants to know...

mwe3: Can you mention a few of the musicians playing with you on What'll It Be? especially as there are a number of pretty well known people with you here.

Barry Ollman: Since this record is totally out of the blue for just about anyone who reads this, I'm well aware that I have Graham, Garry Tallent, David Amram, Nick and Helen, James Raymond and the others to thank for giving me even the slightest cred here. I'm seriously grateful to each one of them. I mean, I know there are people out there who have never heard of Christian Teele, for example, but he is one of the finest drummers and percussionists I could ever work with. Put on some headphones and crank up this record and pay attention to his playing. It's amazing throughout. Christian has been the drummer for Etown for over twenty years and he's played with just about everybody on their artist list. Ask Shawn Colvin, James Taylor or Indigo Girls about the Etones and you'll get raves for their playing. Christian finds that groove every time and just lives there. He has great subtlety as well.

As for David Amram, forget about it! It would take me hours to tell his story. I met David in 1982 at The Lone Star Café' in NYC when he was sitting in with the great Steve Goodman. We hung out after the show and I was amazed by him, even then. We reconnected in 2006 in Okemah, Oklahoma at the Woody Guthrie Festival and have had so many great times together ever since. David has worked with everyone from Leonard Bernstein and James Galway, to Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Jack Kerouac, Bob Dylan, Willie Nelson, Hunter S. Thompson, Pete Seeger and so many more. And he's only 84! I'm honored to call him my friend.

Some of your readers may know another dear friend of ours, Rad Lorkovic. He's also a favorite at Woody Fest and he is an absolute force of nature on anything with a keyboard. When I picture Rad, he's usually playing an accordion, but he's also a monster piano player. Great songwriter, great singer... and a blast to hang with. He played on a couple of tracks for me. The one that really breaks my heart is The Old Country. His accordion parts are just perfect for the song. I wrote and recorded pretty much everything you hear in that song between midnight and 4:00AM one night, in my den, and when I finished, I cried like a baby. It's about a childhood friend who passed away some years ago and that night I really reconnected with his spirit and our friendship. The only parts that I added after that night were Christian's drum tracks and Rad's accordion parts.

Barry Ollman photo by Dave Beegle
Photo credit: Dave Beegle

Getting back to Garry Tallent, in case someone out there doesn't know, he's been the bass player for Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band since the very beginning and he gets to rock the World on a regular basis. I first got up the nerve to ask if he'd play on my song "Banker's Holiday" and he got all over it. His bass track on that song still blows me away and if you listen closely he throws in some cool electric guitar and tambourine too. The slide guitars are all Dave Beegle. When I sent him the final mix, he said it was "intense". I'll take that, coming from a guy who plays the shows that he plays. By the way, Garry was recently inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame along with the rest of the E Street Band. Much deserved.

I do want to mention James Raymond who is not only a magnificent musician, writer, arranger, producer and singer but he's also an incredibly warm and intelligent human being. I liked him immediately when we first met. Some people know that he's the "long lost" son of David Crosby, but CSN would be lucky to have him on piano and keyboards even if he weren't. I asked him to play piano on my song, "Almost Time", and I love what he came up with. That is some really beautiful playing. Listen carefully...

Again, I want to say that getting to work with Dave Beegle is such a treat for me. He's been blowing me away with his guitar work for over twenty years and it was a huge bonus to learn that he is also a deeply talented recording engineer.

mwe3: Graham Nash sings back up on the lead off track "Imogen's Lament". How far back do you go with Graham? I was thinking your voice sounds similar in some regards to David Crosby too.

Barry Ollman: Well, first of all I've got to say that Graham gave me a great gift when he sang on "Imogen's Lament". We really made it more of a duet than a backup part. I grew up listening to The Hollies and CSN and when he and I first became friends around 1989 or so, I really hadn't been playing that much music. We'd noodle around on guitars once in a while, at his house, or mine, but it was a totally casual thing. I do remember very clearly the first time we actually sang together. It was in February of 2002 and I was at his house in Encino the day after his 60th birthday party. I was sitting by myself in the living room playing a beautiful old Martin D45 and for no particular reason I started playing Paul Simon's Bookends. You know the one... "time it was and what a time it was. It was..." Dm to C... Graham walked by and asked what I was playing. I told him what it was and he told me to keep going and sing the lead bit. Suddenly he put the harmony on top and that was it! It was a hundred percent unexpected and more beautiful than any music I'd ever made. He smiled and went into the kitchen and I just sat there feeling like I wanted out of that box I'd put myself in. Looking back now, I'd say my muse was calling...

As for me sounding like Croz, I honestly don't know what you're talking about. He's ten times the singer I am and while I'm flattered that you make the connection, I don't think it holds water. I think he'll crack up when I mention it to him!

mwe3: Dave Beegle also plays on What'll It Be? and many have enjoyed Dave's various albums too. Interesting that Dave is a fine guitarist but on your album he's playing bass and B3 to name a couple instruments.

Barry Ollman: Dave is a jewel. He's such a musical guy and I rarely have to explain anything to him when he's doing that engineering thing. Whenever I say, see if you can... (fill in the blank) he's already working on it! He's definitely one of my favorite guitarists too. Jimmy Page was knocked out by his playing! He's great on anything with strings. He also has that old Hammond B3 and Leslie cabinet in his studio and he's not afraid to use it! We work really well together and it always feels like there's a very low ego quotient between us.

mwe3: Which What'll It Be? tracks are getting the most airplay on radio and do you have some personal favorites? The lead off track, with Graham Nash on backing vocals is excellent. What was the inspiration behind "Imogen's Lament"?

Barry Ollman photo credit: Guy Zahler
Photo credit: Guy Zahler

Barry Ollman: I've been getting a fair amount of airplay in Europe and the tracks that seem to get the most attention are "Imogen's Lament" (thanks again, Graham!), "See Ya in Okemah", "The Other Half", "Something To Say" and "Banker's Holiday". Side note: a lot of women have told me that they really love "Lean In Close" and I do too... My brother Rick calls it my "adult love song".

As for "Imogen's Lament", it began to take shape following a conversation I had with my photographer brother, Arthur, regarding a phone conversation he had in the seventies with the master photographer Imogen Cunningham. Incidentally, I originally met Graham through Arthur who was, at the time, the director of the Museum of Photographic Arts in San Diego. He did that for 23 years!

Arthur had known Imogen and we both loved her images, of course. I wrote the song as an affectionate homage to her life and work. While I took certain liberties with her story, I do like the feeling we captured of a person who has spent a full lifetime making amazing artwork and finishes her career just as a whole new era arrives. In fact, when Imogen passed away at 93 in 1976, the personal computer and integrated circuits and microprocessors were just beginning to see the light of day and photography would be changed forever. "Now there's hundreds of millions. One in every phone..."

I recorded the song with Dave up in Loveland, and the sessions went really well. Some people probably don't know that Graham was a photographer before he was a musician and making and collecting photography has been one of his lifelong passions. Check out his photography if you're not familiar with it. It's world class... Anyway, I sent the basic mix to him and he got right back to me. He told me I'd written a great song and that I shouldn't finish my record until he'd sung on it! All I remember is that I floated a few inches off the ground for a few days after that. With his schedule, it took a few years to get into the studio with him but he kept reminding me to wait for it to happen. I was very patient and the story even gets better...

The night we recorded his vocal tracks in Boulder, I took a wrong turn and got us thoroughly lost driving to the studio, and when he saw a road sign that said Exit Zero, he said it would make a great song and did I want to write it with him. I waited for perhaps a tenth of a second and said YES! We spent a couple of weeks going back and forth with our various ideas for music and lyrics and eventually wound up working on the song with CSN's other tremendous guitarist, Shane Fontayne. Shane changed the feel of the song pretty dramatically, changed some chords around and generally created a groove that Graham enjoyed singing to. I love it and I've since had the great thrill of watching Crosby, Stills & Nash performing a song that I helped write. Living the dream, as they say...

mwe3: How about the song "Banker's Holiday"? It's a real driving rocker and it has some cutting edge lyrics that really make your hair stand up on the back of your neck. What motivated the ideas behind that track?

Barry Ollman: I spent many years working in the financial world at a distinctly non-master of the universe level and I always tried to be honest and ethical in my approach to the business. When the economy started to come undone around 2008, largely at the expense of the fabled 99%, I just felt more and more pissed every time I turned on the news. I've since learned to watch less television. Anyway, I know a fair amount about the history of "protest songs" and if this didn't deserve to get its own song, I don't know what would. The thought of all these multi-national bank CEO's living like pharaohs, while countless millions of people have to choose between food and medicine and rent. Well, that's where the song comes from.

Barry Ollman, photo credit Addy Nijenboer
Photo credit: Addy Nijenboer

This might be a good moment to mention Woody Guthrie. For the past thirty years, I've led a whole other parallel life as a pretty serious collector of rare letters and autograph material. My main focus has been on American Social Movements from 1920 to 1970, primarily through music and literature. I love underdogs! No Nazis and no baseball players...

Sometime late in the 1980's, I stumbled on one of Woody's handwritten letters and some little light went on in my head. Since then, I've been very fortunate to have put together the biggest private collection of Woody's papers and artworks and I can't begin to tell you what the whole experience has meant to me. Woody was a true American genius and his output in nearly every mode of expression was absolutely enormous.

My fascination with Woody also led me to many of the people that were drawn to him, like Lead Belly, Pete Seeger and of course, Bob Dylan. That Woody circle is an ever widening one and for socially conscious musicians and artists, he sits right at the root of a very large tree, if you know what I mean. I'd say he is one of those strong, deep roots and any young musician would do very well to study Woody Guthrie. I guess I would say that "Banker's Holiday" pretty much came right out of the Woody Guthrie Center in my brain.

I think Dylan said something like, "you could listen to his music and learn how to live!" Woody was very unafraid and I really admire that fiery clarity that poured out of him.

Pardon the cliché, but he was a true champion of the little guy... If someone out there would like an introduction to Woody, I'd suggest that they read his wonderful book Bound For Glory or Ed Cray's biography Ramblin' Man or even download Bob Dylan's "Last Thoughts on Woody Guthrie", a seven minute recording of the only time he ever read a poem on stage. It was at his first major concert in NY, outside of the coffee houses, at Town Hall on April 12th, 1963 and it's incredibly powerful.

If you don't mind, I'd like to throw in a comment about song writing in general... Obviously, there are as many methods and techniques as there are songwriters and no one method is right or wrong. A lot of great writers are highly disciplined about the craft of song writing. Some write a song every day. Some write a song every Saturday or whatever. Woody often wrote ten songs a day! No kidding... I don't think he could help it!

Aside from Woody, my understanding of that sort of highly focused behavior is that it may be about keeping the ideas flowing and avoiding getting lazy about it all. I just want to say, that's not me. I'm not bragging about this but I often go along, very happily, not writing a song for months, and then when I do feel that I have something coming through that I believe needs saying, I just try to be ready. I know that I miss a bunch of them but I feel pretty strongly about the ones I do get. And, of course, I probably am lazy...

mwe3: What are your instruments of choice when it comes to writing music? From the sound of your playing on the CD, it's clear that you're a very underrated guitarist as well. I guess anyone that can hold their own with top guys like Dave Beegle has to know how to play! Tell us about your favorite guitars and the guitars you play on What'll It Be?

Barry Ollman with Graham Nash. Photo by James Tuttle.
Photo credit: James Tuttle

Barry Ollman: Thanks. I mainly write on an acoustic 6 string guitar, either my 1966 Guild D40 that my dad bought me, brand new, on my 13th birthday or my Martin, Graham Nash Signature model that I got from Graham. Both are amazing instruments and bring out different elements in my playing.

Speaking of amazing instruments, any electric 12 string that you hear on this record would be my 1966 Rickenbacker (330/12) which was a gift from Henry Gross. It plays like a dream and sounds ridiculously perfect. That guitar, played through Dave's vintage Vox amps,with an occasional big old Marshall thrown in, is pure ear candy to me. Sometimes I think that the fact that the four Beatles met when they did, and chose the specific instruments they chose, to make it sound like that, is all I need to prove that there is a God. It can't possibly be a coincidence! Just listen to "You Can't Do That" or "You're Gonna Lose That Girl." Think about it...

By the way, if you listen to my song "The Other Half", pretty loud, and check out the part that goes "I'm walking, I'm running, I'm standing still". That's the Rick 12 that's chunking along during that section. It was really loud and sort of glorious that day in the studio...

mwe3: I was reading about your early childhood years. Where did you grow up and where do you live now? Also how amazing was it that your dad was the Midwest correspondent for Billboard during the heyday of pop music history? I would read Billboard and Cashbox religiously every week during the 1960s as my dad owned restaurants in Midtown Manhattan so back then, there was never a shortage of great music to find at Sam Goody and all the other great music stores back then! Do you wish you could back in time 50 years ago and go through all of this again? How do you keep your memory alive and burnished when you think about your dad and all the great music that happened during your lifetime?

Barry Ollman: I grew up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. What I mean is, to the extent that I grew up, I did it there... Even when I was a kid I thought it was really cool that my dad wrote for Billboard magazine. I raced home from school every Monday afternoon to read the Top 100! We had stacks of old issues in the basement. There were other benefits of his work as well. For instance, when he took my brother Rick and I to see The Jimi Hendrix Experience with The Soft Machine in February of 1968 and we had great 4th row Center seats. That changed the brain of this 14 year old, right there. Trust me...

My whole family was, and always has been, very musical and respectful of the arts in general. I think that sort of gave me permission to explore my creative side which I consider a major gift for any young person to receive. Oh yeah, and I've lived in the Denver area for 40 some years now...

mwe3: What else do you have on the front burner and back burner for the next year or so? What will your next album sound like and how far down the road are you on the follow up to What'll It Be? What other activities are present in your mind as far as what you want to accomplish this coming year?

Barry Ollman: I'll get back to your questions but I should probably give you a piece of background information here... I had actually just finished mastering this record, and designing the cover art, in early October of 2012 and I'd been doing a bunch of traveling and was mostly feeling pretty good. I did notice that my arms had been feeling "heavy" but I didn't pay too much attention to it. I remember that time very clearly as our friends Parker Millsap and John Fullbright were in Denver for a show at The Bluebird Theater and they were staying at our house for a few days. The next week I went out to DC for Woody Guthrie's 100th Birthday event at The Kennedy Center and that following Sunday I was sitting on the couch with my wife, Judy, when she asked how I was feeling. That's when I uttered what would have been some great famous last words, "I feel pretty good right now". Then my eyes rolled up in my head and I went into total cardiac arrest! I mean dead. She called 911 and to my great good fortune, the guys at South Metro Fire #31, who are one mile from our house, were not otherwise engaged. They got to me in five minutes, and with no time to spare, moved the furniture, cut my shirt off and defibrillated me three separate times, and once more in the ambulance when they felt they were losing me. I've got some amazing pictures of those bruises! All colors... Of course, other than the photos, all of this is hearsay to me as I was totally gone at the time.

Barry Ollman photo by Dave Beegle
Photo credit: Dave Beegle

The short version of all this is that I spent eight days in the hospital, the first three of which I was chilled down and kept in an induced coma in an attempt to reduce any damage to my heart. In retrospect, I like to think that I simply had a plumbing problem and my timing was really good! They do say that people who go through what I went through, a V-Fib or Ventricular Fibrillation, in the home, have about a 3-8% chance of survival! I'm told my nurses kept calling me miracle man. I've taken several gift baskets over to the fire station since then and they're always glad to see me because, as they say, "we lose most of 'em"!

These days I feel great, and very grateful! By the way, on my last day in the hospital, I looked up to see Graham walking into the room carrying a really cool black leather CSN tour jacket. He likes to blow my mind and he did that day. My mom and Judy and our daughters all knew he was coming but they kept their poker faces... He flew in from LA to give me a little love and encouragement and of course, my family adores him. It made for a great conclusion to a very unusual week, one that was much scarier for everyone else than it was for me.

Now, back to the music... I'd say I spent a good nine months healing up and coming to terms with what I'd been through before I even thought about doing anything with the record. Then one day, I put on some head phones and gave it a good listen. I was pleasantly surprised to feel that not only did the songs still resonate with me, but I really enjoyed listening to them. I guess I had a basic "life's too short to be wasting time" kind of moment, because I immediately wanted to put the record out, if for no other reason than to have a tangible way to thank the very large number of friends and family who rallied around me when this happened. I'll tell you, I've mailed out a lot of CDs with handwritten thank you notes and I meant each one. The whole thing went from being a big blast of artistic expression to an expression of gratitude! That works for me...

Interestingly, I had just finished recording and mixing the song "Almost Time", maybe a month or so before my heart episode, and I placed it last on the album. Now I think of it as having some of the more ironic lyrics on the record. "I hear her calling out to me tonight. It's almost time, but not quite..." fits pretty well and I really like the bridge that says "When I was young, the road was long and wide ahead. But as I've travelled, I feel I'm standing on a golden thread". It's taken on all sorts of new meaning for me.

As for that "road ahead" stuff... It's taken me a while to get back to song writing but I have been writing lately and I'm starting to think about how I'd like to produce my next tracks. I'm working on an interesting compilation project with three terrific singer/songwriters that will be coming out next year. I've also been doing a little work with my old friend Doug McGinnis's on some of his new tracks up at Far & Away Studios in Boulder, Colorado. The studio is a real beauty, by the way. My friend Geoff Gray, the owner, worked with Les Paul for many years. He has some of Les's old equipment in the studio and a hell of a lot of funny stories...

Back to that follow up record... In this past month, a few friends of mine kindly offered to pitch in on some recordings and they are some of my favorite musicians working today. I'm definitely getting excited again but I can't push these things. Actually, I suppose I could, but I don't think it works that well for me to make music that way. I like it better when it comes to me...

Thanks to Barry Ollman @ and to Peter Holmstedt @